No. TWO

LETITIA QUESENBERRY

Brooks For almost a decade until last summer, our studios were essentially next to each other’s.

Quesenberry I miss you.

Brooks I miss you, too! I got to know you and your practice really well. Much of your work—particularly the series entitled little darlings—is imbued with such an incredibly strong sense of memory and wistfulness. Formally based on the polaroid, little darlings catalogue people who are of great importance to you. How did this work begin?

Quesenberry The first little darlings I made as moquettes for the as of yet series…

Brooks And the as of yets are abstract and larger in scale, but also based on the form of the polaroid.

Quesenberry Yes. I quickly found that the little darlings were different and interesting enough on their own, so I started to make them using photographs of people. The early ones were made using wax to fill the void where the image is placed.

Brooks And then you started using resin instead?

Quesenberry The resin came later, yes. I constructed the frames, as I still do, but the initial ones were made using quarter inch plywood and the edges were made with small square dowels, so they were kind of hodgepodged together. But the dimensions were pleasing and they were fast and fun, so I kept making more.

Brooks You are obviously an incredibly keen collector of impressions and experiences. Did that awareness begin somewhere in your childhood?

Quesenberry Yeah. I grew up in a house that was next door to my mom’s parents’ house.  My grandparents loved to just get in their car and travel. One of them was quite good at taking photographs, so they would return from going on a car trip with a lot of slides and they would have a slide show in their living room, and I just loved it. I would lay on the carpet and look at the screen. Just seeing what they had seen always thrilled me.

Brooks Was it the imagery that thrilled you or the adventure that they had been on?

Quesenberry It was both. I had not been to those places myself but hearing their descriptions and seeing the images of what they had seen made me feel like I had been there.

Brooks And where were they going on these road trips?

Quesenberry They just went anywhere. They loved going to a state park.

Brooks Kentucky has such beautiful state parks.

Quesenberry Yes. They loved going out west to like New Mexico. Some of the places they went were sort of familiar looking, but a lot of it was pretty exotic to me, like the desert, for example. I didn't have any experience of places like that. When my mom was little, they drove to Cuba.

Brooks Now, wait a minute [laughs]…

Quesenberry [laughs] I mean they drove to Key West and then got on a car ferry.

Brooks Oh, wow. From Kentucky to Cuba. This would have been the mid to late 1950s?

Quesenberry Yes. That all got shut down, of course, so they had all these images, which were just really interesting to me. If they didn’t have new pictures to show, they would  show us old trips, which I just always loved. I feel like those experiences play a part in that sense of memory in my work. My dad was a history teacher, so I got pretty interested in history, too. I was intrigued by the record of things that had happened. I think that had something to do with the beginning of the little darlings.

Brooks The little darlings represent your own history, in a way. They are a kind of record of things that matter to you.

Quesenberry Yes.

Brooks They feel very specific to you. I’m just thinking of certain examples I know, off the top of my head: Patti Smith, Susan Sontag, Grace Jones, David Bowie, and then people from your personal life.

Quesenberry Yes.

Brooks When you began this project, were you particularly conscious of the desire to record not only your personal history, but also, in a more general way, to take control over who gets to record history and what history is recorded? You obviously intend to say these are people who need to be remembered.

Quesenberry Oh, for sure. It's almost as if the impulse is like look at this, I want you to see this or this person matters to me, even if it’s, you know, only on a visual level.

Brooks The same is true for many of the figures in my work. How many little darlings are there now?

Quesenberry I can tell you. Exactly. There are four hundred and fifty.

Brooks Wow! Are there repeats, like figures who are represented more than once?

Quesenberry Oh yeah, there are certain people who continue to re-emerge. Patti Smith is one, Bridget Riley. I don't always know who will show up. It’s kind of weird. It's both people I don't know personally and also people that I do know.

Brooks I also don’t always know who will show up in my work.

Quesenberry That part of it is kind of interesting, isn’t it?.

Brooks Yes. They comprise your constellation, in a way, like they do in mine.

Quesenberry I think things are similar in our work in that way. The figures I use are often people that I know, or people that mean something to me, people that in a way, I feel like I want to play with, as part of my world. I’m part of their world, whether or not they know it. I think some of that has to do with being Queer and building a chosen family.

Brooks That phrase—chosen family—is not something I was ever consciously aware of or was something I sought out when I was younger, but perhaps when you grow up in a time and place—or even just when you grow up in any situation—in which you are trying to find some connection and alliance and affinity with people and you realize maybe those people aren't immediately around you, you look begin to look elsewhere.

Quesenberry Yeah.

Brooks You look as far as you need to look, right?

Quesenberry Right, you do.

Brooks You look in contemporary culture, but also to those who came before you, like, oh I don’t know, Oscar Wilde for example. [laughs]

Quesenberry Yes. [laughs]

Brooks I don't remember if he's one of your little darlings, but he should be.

Quesenberry Selecting the subjects…it’s almost like that game people play where they ask if you could have a dinner party and invite anyone from history, who would you invite?

Brooks Your dinner party is getting quite large.

Quesenberry I definitely couldn't cook for that many people. [laughs]

Brooks What would you cook if you had such a big dinner party?

Quesenberry I don't really know. The whole thought of it stresses me out. I like to grill…but for that many people it would be too much.

Brooks Oh, yes. [laughs]

Quesenberry I'm not a gifted hostess by any stretch.

Brooks You're conscientious, though. You could figure out something.

Quesenberry I suppose I could.

Brooks Although I don't see you having doilies under all of your dishes like my grandmother did. [laughs]

Quesenberry Definitely no doilies. [laughs]

Brooks I do wonder…and I never really thought about this until I started thinking about it…

Quesenberry Isn't that funny how that happens? [laughs]

Brooks Yes. [laughs] The little darlings are figurative and born from memory and connection and history. Your other ongoing series, entitled as of yet, explores abstraction and color. Is there an aspect of this latter series that also has to do with memory and experience, or does the impetus to create them come from an entirely different place?

Quesenberry Yes and no. Often when I'm making a choice in the process of making one of the as of yets I'll reflect on something like a flower that I saw or some articles of clothing that I suddenly remember. But it's not such a clear line as with the little darlings.

Brooks It's more of a sensation?

Quesenberry Yeah, sensation, that’s such a good way to describe it.

Brooks I think that’s how we often experience color, isn’t it?

Quesenberry Yes.

Brooks One of the most recent as of yets that you posted seems to have a lot of…extra razzle-dazzle. I think it might be made entirely of resin?

Quesenberry Yes.

BrooksWas this a product of being in Brazil, where you were recently for a residency?

Quesenberry Yeah. I started that in Brazil. I ran out of panels there, so I had to improvise.

Brooks The panels, which you construct by hand, are the base for making the work. The raw canvases, so to speak.

Quesenberry Yes.

Brooks And you brought them with you to Brazil?

Quesenberry I brought a few. As many as could fit. Once I used all of them, I still had some time left, so I bought what I could. It was quite hard to find what I needed.

Brooks You were in São Paulo?

Quesenberry Yes. I did get to take a little side trip to Rio for a weekend. I would definitely love to go back there.

Brooks How long were you in São Paulo?

Quesenberry I went last fall for two months and then for another month this spring, which is their fall.

Brooks How is your Portuguese now?

Quesenberry Not great. It’s really hard. That was one of the hardest things for me, the inability to communicate.

Brooks When you went the first time,  were you on a residency or did you receive a grant?

Quesenberry I got a grant through Great Meadows Foundation to do a residency.

Brooks And the second time?

Quesenberry It was just the same thing, actually. Originally, I was supposed to be there for three months but the way that the scheduling worked out…if I went in the fall and stayed the whole three months, it coincided with Christmas and a lot of things, and there wasn’t a lot happening in the art world there at that time. SP-Arte is a big fair that happens in the spring—our spring—so it made sense for me to come back for that.

Brooks Wonderful.

Quesenberry It was much more social when I came back, too. That was fun.

Brooks With your love of vivid color and abstraction, Brazil seems like such a natural place for you to be.

Quesenberry It was kind of thrilling to be there and to see, like, so much work by Carlos Cruz-Diez, for example. I’ve seen his work around, often in California, but it’s not that common in the U.S. It was so great to see so many examples not in a book, not online, but actually in person, standing in front of the work and moving around it.

Brooks Did you feel like oh, these are my people?

Quesenberry One hundred percent.

Brooks That's such a wonderful feeling.

Quesenberry It really is. Even if nothing else ever comes of it, it was such a good experience.  

Brooks Kentucky artists are so lucky to have Great Meadows Foundation, the organization that funded your trip. [Founded by the late Rev. Al Shands in 2016, Great Meadows Foundation provides, among other things, experience-based travel grants for Kentucky artists].

Quesenberry Yes, we are very lucky.

Brooks What first drew you to Carlos Cruz-Diez’s work?

Quesenberry The first work I saw of his was "Cromosaturación” in 2011 at the Geffen Contemporary. It was my first time in Los Angeles, and that piece was part of an exhibition called "Suprasensorial: Experiments in Light, Color, and Space,” I was traveling with a contemporary collector group from the Speed Museum. Stephen Irwin had just died and so we were all totally lost and reeling; I think [artist] Chris Radtke took pity on me a bit and invited me to join last minute, maybe? Or at least in my memory of it, the trip felt like a surprise.  Anyway, because of that and for other reasons, too, I was extra open to the experience. Cruz-Diez’s work in that show stood out. It just struck me so profoundly; the power of it, and the seeming simplicity of it. To make something about subtlety and perception with clarity, that didn't disappear or get muddled and confusing and needed no explanation whatsoever?!? It blew my mind.

Brooks I wish I had known Stephen. I'm honored to live with a work by him. 

Quesenberry He was incredible.

Brooks It's interesting that you mention Cruz's subtlety and perception and clarity. Subtlety and perception also come to mind when I think about your work, but I'm not sure about clarity. Your work undoubtedly has an aesthetic clarity, but its meaning, or its message, or even what I might describe as the ways in which I think you suggest how the viewer might experience your work...all of that is quite slippery. 

Quesenberry It’s true, I mostly find things more interesting when I don’t know, when there is room to wonder. In this way I often want to create a moment of confusion, either in the what, the how, or the why. Bewilderment is a word that continues to come up.

Brooks That newest piece of yours I mentioned—the caption on Instagram says glowing on flaming—feels totally in line with the work you've been making for a while, but it seems as if you’ve pushed towards a new level. Looking at that piece and now hearing you talk about your Brazilian experiences, it is as if being there has inspired you to double down on what you were already doing. That feels really exciting.

Quesenberry It is. I don't think it has occurred to me yet but maybe that’s what is happening. I do hope so. Being and working there was quite difficult in some ways.

Brooks How so?

Quesenberry It was so isolating.

Brooks Were you alone in the residency?

Quesenberry Pretty much. Simon Watson, who runs the residency, was close, but he was working. And making work as an artist always means a lot of alone time.

Brooks Working in the studio is a solitary endeavor for me.

Quesenberry Oh, for sure, and I'm used to that. I was so alone, though, that I found myself like looking forward to going to the grocery store.

Brooks To interact with people.

Quesenberry Yes. It was kind of weird for me to feel that level of isolation. But it was good. I'm grateful that I had the experience because I do think it has pushed me.

Brooks Al Shands would be happy.

Quesenberry Yes, he would be.

Brooks You recently showed some work in a group show called Erotic City at Eric Firestone Gallery in New York City.

Quesenberry Yes. I didn’t get to see the show, but I love the title.

Brooks It’s a great title! And it was a great show, very wide-ranging. I got to see it when I was in the city this spring. What else do you have on the horizon?

Quesenberry I have a show at the Quonset Hut here in Louisville, and my friend Tara Jane O’Neill is going to play at the opening. I am so excited.

Brooks Cool.

Quesenberry She does some things in L.A. I will let you know next time she plays out there.

Brooks Please do! There is so much good music here. I saw another Louisvillian perform recently.

Quesenberry Who was that?

Brooks Will Oldham.

Quesenberry Oh, so good.

Brooks He and his band were incredible. They performed at Pico Union Project, which is in an old synagogue; actually the oldest synagogue building in Los Angeles. The acoustics are unbelievable. There were dueling saxophonists, and then there was a third saxophone—maybe a bass saxophone—and for one song they came blasting down the aisles. It was so menacing and memorable and wild.

Quesenberry Oh, wow. It is still a synagogue?

Brooks No, I think it was deconsecrated. 

Quesenberry Why are music shows in old churches or spaces like that so good?

Brooks The acoustics are usually so good. Maybe it is the shape of the space? There is often a lot of wood, too. Perhaps being in those kinds of spaces heightens our senses, too.

Quesenberry They’re special.

Brooks Yes, they are. Maybe even more so for those of us who were in those kinds of spaces a lot as a kid, but aren’t in them often now?

Quesenberry Maybe so.

Brooks I grew up going to a Catholic church in a traditional, ornate kind of building. I wonder if maybe some of what I feel is partly related to the memory of being young and being in a space like that. I have vivid—if a little foggy—memories of being a kid and being in church and being mesmerized by the grandeur of the space and the music and the pageantry of it all. I remember spending so much time looking at the statues and reading the names painted on the stained-glass windows. There definitely wasn't another space like that in my life.

Quesenberry Right.

Brooks But I wonder if you don’t grow up going to those kind of spaces, maybe they have slightly different connotations when you’re in them.

Quesenberry Maybe.

Brooks But architecture can be so powerful.

Quesenberry For sure.

Brooks Didn’t you grow up Catholic, too?

Quesenberry Yes, I went to all that Catholic stuff, too, but my experience of it was quite different.

Brooks How so?

Quesenberry I went to Catholic school, and then we would always go to church on Saturday evening, so in the afternoon I’d have to stop playing and come inside, take a shower, put on a dress. I hated it.

Brooks I understand. [laughs] They were not your kind of people.

Quesenberry I never really understood it, to be honest.

Brooks Catholicism?

Quesenberry Yes, all of it. The whole thing.

Brooks I was very into it when I was young.

Quesenberry Oh, really?

Brooks Yeah, I was enamored with it and mesmerized by it, but I finally figured out that it was the pageantry and the mystery and the gravitas of it all that felt so intriguing to me, and that it had nothing to do with dogma.

Quesenberry I see.

Brooks And the dogma is kind of important, you know? I finally understood that these beliefs were not my own and that this was not the place for me.

Quesenberry Right.

Brooks But I do sort of miss the music. I don't miss going to church, don’t miss sitting there and doing all that—and it has been so long anyway— but I suppose that I appreciated the sense of awe that it inspired. Thankfully nature took its place.

Quesenberry I know what you mean, because I was already feeling that in nature, from a young age. I didn’t want to leave it. 

Brooks Did you ever share that feeling with your mom or dad? Like I'm worshiping out here. I don't need to go to church.

Quesenberry I tried to. I just didn’t feel like I had a choice. But by the time I really started to resist, they seemed to understand. They quit pushing me.

Brooks They could see you.

Quesenberry Yes.

Brooks What a great thing, to be able to be seen.

Quesenberry I got lucky.

Brooks You surround yourself with things that are meaningful and purposeful. What music are you listening to in the studio these days?

Quesenberry That's such a huge and hard question because I love so much music. Tara Jane O’Neill is a go to, but I really like chance encounters. If I don’t have to decide, it’s so much better.

Brooks So you listen to things at random? You have an old iPod that you use, right?

Quesenberry Yes, it’s from like 2004 or something. Sometimes I’ll just put it on shuffle and let it go, which is pretty interesting. You know, I spend a lot of time listening to podcasts now. It’s kind of sad and curious at this point, because I am not sure it’s that good for me.

Brooks I’ve talked to a lot of artists who listen to podcasts when they work. I love listening to podcasts, but not when I work. I need music when I work. What are you listening to?

Quesenberry Mostly it's like politics and news. I think that’s the part that makes me a little insane for listening to it because it's so stressful.

Brooks Yeah, why do you do that to yourself?

Quesenberry I don't know, other than that it seems like I need to have some sort of awareness of what's going on.

Brooks And you do spend a lot of time in the studio, so it provides you a place to listen. You’re a captive audience of one.

Quesenberry Yes. Sometimes instead of a podcast, I’ll listen to a book, which is good because it's hard to actually sit down and read.

Brooks Have you been listening to any books in particular?

Quesenberry I'm in the middle of Against Interpretation.

Brooks Susan Sontag. I can see you listening and working to that.

Quesenberry There is another one called Daily Rituals; it’s basically different artists, composers, writers, and like, the authors just break down little bits about their practice, describing when and how they would work. Each part is just really short, digestible. I find that kind of fascinating, just knowing how different people are creative. The weird struggles of being an artist; if they had kids or if they didn’t. Often people follow this kind of ritual, but none of them are the same.

Brooks It’s so true. How we work is so personal. You're a regular sort of nine to five gal, aren’t you?

Quesenberry Pretty much. I have gotten a little out of that habit, but maybe it's just coming back from Brazil. I think I used to feel like I had to be here all the time and I don't feel like that anymore. If I have something to do here, then yes, but if not, I've got plenty of other things to work on at home or like helping my mom or just kind of relaxing more.

Brooks Good. Yes, you do have to be in the studio making work, but there are always other things that can inform your work. Helping your mom, taking a walk, traveling, resting all count. You never know what is going to spark something.

Quesenberry That's true.

Brooks So,  you’re continuing to work on the little darlings and as of yets. Is there anything else at the moment?

Quesenberry I'm trying to make work with these gigantic round frames.

Brooks Are these going to be light boxes or static pieces?

Quesenberry Both, though I’m only making one oversize light box. I didn't realize that everything at this scale is special order because the standard size is generally forty-eight inches, not sixty.

Brooks You’re speaking about the plexiglass, which you use on the lightboxes?

Quesenberry Yes. Having to special order things at this particular moment seems like a bad idea, so I am only making one at this scale.

Brooks Special orders get expensive very quickly.

Quesenberry Yeah, I was like…why am I doing this? [laughs]

Brooks Luckily there’s only economic certainty on the horizon. [laughs]

Quesenberry Right. [laughs]

Brooks Is this singular large lightbox meant for a specific project?

Quesenberry Yes, I want it to be in my upcoming show at The Quonset Hut.

Brooks In Louisville.

Quesenberry Yes. Did you see my show last year at Indiana University Southeast?

Brooks Yes, I did.

Quesenberry I’m treating this new show as a continuation of that show, in a way. Tara Jane’s music was the soundtrack for that show, and for this one, she will be playing live at the opening.

Brooks One of the rooms was dark, and your light boxes were on, pulsating.

Quesenberry It was all dark, yeah. The whole show.

Brooks It was great.

Quesenberry Thank you. This one may not be exactly like that, but the vibe will be similar.

Brooks I’m sure it will be fantastic. Earlier, before we starter, you and I did say we were going to talk about Snoopy.

Quesenberry Oh, right. Snoopy!

Brooks We both love him.

Quesenberry Yes.

Brooks For some reason, I was thinking about you and your relationship to toys, or things like that.

Quesenberry Toys?

Brooks Yes. I was thinking about being a kid and how memorable and specific the colors on certain toys were, and I wondered if the same was true for you and if perhaps your love of color could partially be traced to such an origin.

Quesenberry Oh, interesting. I don’t think toys necessarily, but animations for sure.

Brooks Such as…

Quesenberry Like, the animations they would play on Sesame Street or like 321 Contact.

Brooks 321 Contact!

Quesenberry Yes, the old animated graphics from the 70s and early 80s. A lot came from the television graphics of that time period.

Brooks I can see it. You're like Mike TV from Willy Wonka. [laughs]

Quesenberry Yes. One hundred percent. [laughs]

Brooks Did you watch a lot of TV when you were a kid?

Quesenberry Not in the summer, but otherwise as much as I could. I loved it. I feel like I wasn't allowed to watch as much as  I wanted, but also there were not that many things to watch.

Brooks There were fewer options then.

Quesenberry Yes. But there were certain shows that I just loved. And I had so many records, like record of Disney animation movies.

Brooks Mickey Mouse Disco.

Quesenberry I didn’t have that one. Did you?

Brooks I did. I do!

Quesenberry I liked Fantasia.

Brooks A classic. Did you have a favorite Muppet?

Quesenberry Definitely the musicians, like Animal and Janice.

Brooks Doctor Teeth and the Electric Mayhem.

Quesenberry Yes, Doctor Teeth! I loved them all. There isn't one that I didn't love.

Brooks They're so formative for me as well. I think so much of my sense of humor was shaped by The Muppets.

Quesenberry Absolutely.

Brooks Even my sensibility. The show is really profound. They were profound. They were hilarious, they were tender. They were curious about the world. I love them so much.

Quesenberry So, so good. Jim Henson.

Brooks Yes. And then there is Snoopy.

Quesenberry And then there is Snoopy. I remember getting my allowance and I would spend the entire amount either on candy or on these softback Peanuts coloring books. They weren’t expensive; maybe one dollar or something, but I had like thirty of them.

Brooks Did you get them at the drug store?

Quesenberry Either the drugstore or the bookstore. I just wanted more. I could never have enough. I got into this whole period of time where I was drawing Snoopy constantly.

Brooks Oh! I've never seen these drawings.

Quesenberry I don't know that they exist anymore, but I do just remember wanting to draw Snoopy.

Brooks And what was it about Snoopy?

Quesenberry I don't know, I just love him. He seemed very much like either how I wanted to be, or just he just felt so familiar in a way.

Brooks I understand!

Quesenberry I loved the way he laughed.

Brooks He has a great laugh!

Quesenberry Totally.

Brooks He was iconic and iconoclastic. He was always his own man. He does what he wants.

Quesenberry For sure. Love it. Do you know a kids’ book called Mr. Dog?

Brooks I don't think I know that one.

Quesenberry The illustrations for it are so good. And it says “he belongs to himself,” Mr. Dog.  His name is Crispin’s Crispian.

Brooks Oh, wow.

Quesenberry My grandparents had that book and I would always just want to read that story. I think I got obsessed with certain things.

Brooks And you still are.

Quesenberry Yes.

Brooks I'm just looking up that book. Oh my god. [laughs] He has a corn cob pipe.

Quesenberry Yes! [laughs] And he lives in this great little house in the woods and there is a staircase that goes up. He goes to the butcher, he gets a bone.

Brooks [Reading] Once upon a time there was a funny dog named Crispin's Crispian. He was named Crispin's Crispian because...

Quesenberry He belonged to himself! [laughs] I’m pretty sure that's the next line.

Brooks It is indeed. That’s wonderful. Well, you belong to yourself. Letitia’s Letitia.

Quesenberry Thank you. I hope so. So do you.

Brooks I hope so, too.

Quesenberry We do. We definitely do.

Other Swans Conversation No. Six

Letitia Quesenberry (b. Louisville, Kentucky, 1971) lives and works in Louisville, KY, and has a Bachelor of Fine Arts from the University of Cincinnati. Recent solo exhibitions include New Discretions, New York and David Smith Gallery, Denver. Her work has been exhibited with 57W57, New York; Ryan Lee Gallery, New York; Kentucky Museum of Art and Craft, Louisville; the Speed Art Museum, Louisville. She is the recipient of grants from SouthArts, Great Meadows Foundation, as well as the Al Smith Fellowship, the Efroymson Contemporary Arts Fellowship, and the Vermont Studio Center Helen Frankenthaler Fellowship. Her work is included in the collections of Beth Rudin DeWoody, Fidelity, 21C, Speed Art Museum and numerous private collections.